Excelsis - Display Vote

Takahashi FS-102

I love all telescopes and still own a 4" Tak, and it is a great scope...but the truth about performance has to be told...If I had to keep ONE scope it would be my EL12.5. Why, aperture wins. I believe that Scopes should be compared on a cost comparison, not strictly on like aperture. It's unfair to compare a $300 4" Newt to a $2900 4" refractor, even though many of them come pretty close in image quality. All my reflectors have handily beaten any 5" or less APO on planetary and deep sky detail. The only 2 saving graces for the smaller refractors is that they have quick cool down and can be used for extreme widefield use in excess of 3 degrees field of view. I owned 2 APs (Traveler and a 130) as well as 7 Taks (2 FS78, 3 FS 102s, and 2 FS128s), None even matched the performance of any reflector over 7-8" I owned regardless of make or manufacture, be it an SCT, Newtonian, or a MakNewt, whether on planets or deepsky. The price/performance ratio doesn't even come close. Many fail to remember that the most important consideration is aperture. As an example, even the 3 8" SCTs which I used to compare to two 5" Taks (these scopes were owned for nearly a year and directly compared side by side with the same premium eyepieces) beat out all these refractors on planets and deep sky detail, even in average seeing. I have never once seen more contrast or detail in the smaller scope, except when the seeing was exceedingly poor. Which was only about 20- 25% of the time.
If you consider that you can get a C9.25 with excellent optics with a computerized GP-DX mount for about $3300, it's a major value compared to about $2900 for just a Traveler optical tube. And it does beat it handily on all objects, except for those over 1 degree in size. But even then the intraobject detail is much higher and apparent in the larger aperture. As for ease of setup, it is about the same for both except that the Traveler can also be used on a large photo tripod for quick use.
I am absolutely convinced that refractors are perceived to perform better than reflectors because of: 1) Smaller aperture gathers less background light, and have darker backgrounds as a result...this is mistaken for higher contrast, particularly by novices and gives an aesthetically more pleasing image. The image contrast is higher in a larger telescope. 2) High quality refractors cool faster, and give excellent images within a short amount of time...large reflectors need a lot of cool down time, and are often not fairly evaluated at star parties because they did not reach thermal equilibrium 3) Comparisons are usually with reflectors that are not properly collimated, or cleaned 4) Most reflector owners of the cheaper dob and SCT variety use less than premium eyepieces, where a Tak or AP owner wouldn't even consider using less than premium ones on such an expensive instrument. Premium eyepieces can even improve a dept. store scope!!! 5) Lastly, the comparisons are made to less than premium instruments. An EL11, costs about $2600 shipped, mount and all. Add a dob driver and computer and your at about $3600. Considerably less than the $6-7000 for a premium 4" refractor setup. And the 11 beats it handily on every object under 1.5* in size.

Overall Rating: 5
Optics:10 Ease of Use:9 Value:4
Weight: 10 (Trustworthy Vote)
Date: 05/16/2002 06:06:44 pm PST
By: Bernie
Link to this vote: http://www.excelsis.com/1.0/displayvote.php?voteid=92098

This is a carefully considered statement by an experienced user, containing valuable insights that may prevent many a novice from running into a dead end. I needed three years and many expensive wrong turns to realize the truth of what Bernie is saying: If you want a tool for excellent views of all objects with fields below 3 degrees, get a big Dob. If you want beautiful widefield, get a Docter Aspectem. The FS-102 is a gorgeous instrument in the way a Jaguar is a gorgeous car - an extravagant collector's piece, not an efficient tool.

What an idiot.  I am still not sure what you are comparing since you did not provide any "review" on the FS-102. If you prefer a big Dob that's great, but what "value" have you added to a review of this or any other scope. What function or feature on the FS-102 did you provide input on. You obviously dislike many of them based on your rating. You "claim" to have owned several of them. Why did you keep making the same mistake by buying refractors when at best they would only be a marginal performer by your criteria?

You might also get yourself caught up on prices and products. You seem to be a graduate of the Enron school of accounting.  I guess your numbers serve your purpose, but they are not accurate by any means.  Check the FS-102 GM8 combo price, the check the ELT price. (the EL-11 is not a current model) In fact based on your criteria why waste your money on a 12.5 Starmaster when you can get a  Meade 16 inch Dob for about 1/3 of the cost. Since the Meade has a larger aperture it will obviously outperform the inferior Starmaster using your $ per inch ratio. 

I came to this review site to get some user feedback on the FS-102.  The current sale price makes the 102 very tempting.  After reading the reviews and then reading your "commentary" I felt I had to reply.  Actually I love the views through my 20inch Obsession, but it is a pain to move, setup, and use.  My AP155 is fantastic also, but I have it setup on a perminant pier and have to drive out to the country to use it.  Now that I have seen the price on the FS-102 GM8 combo and since a pro-Dob user like yourself feels obviously threatened by this little scope, in the end you DID help me make up my mind.  Thanks.  DJ

Bernie's commentary about the Takahashi FS 102 is completely irrelevent. It dwells too much on the debate on the subject of refractors vs reflectors and too little on the real issue regarding the quality and utility of the scope being reviewed. Bernie's vote is therefore useless and unwelcome. I recommend it be ignored.

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